Comments on: On Doormats, Brain Trashing and Blow Up Dolls http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621 Mary Kassian's Girls Gone Wise in a World Gone Wild Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:56:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Me http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621#comment-2214 Me Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:14:20 +0000 http://www.girlsgonewise.com/?p=621#comment-2214 I'm a happily married man in the UK and we're coming up on 20 years. My wife has a strong opinion on submission but she puts it like this: in a big decision - as long as I have heard her, listened to her opinion on something, and taken it on board she's happy to submit. If I then choose to disregard it and I'm right I get the credit, but if I'm wrong - I carry the can! I’m a happily married man in the UK and we’re coming up on 20 years. My wife has a strong opinion on submission but she puts it like this: in a big decision – as long as I have heard her, listened to her opinion on something, and taken it on board she’s happy to submit. If I then choose to disregard it and I’m right I get the credit, but if I’m wrong – I carry the can!

]]> By: Leigh-Anne http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621#comment-2137 Leigh-Anne Tue, 25 May 2010 20:03:09 +0000 http://www.girlsgonewise.com/?p=621#comment-2137 I have a question for this site: if women must show their husbands respect in public, is it ok/more tollerable for a husband to disrespect his wife, even in public? I have heard and read so much talk of wives needing to respect their husbands, and I believe this is true--especially in a North American culture which terribly disrespects men and lays them under the feet of women. But is the opposite right either? Culture also disrespects women by making them sexual objects, prized for their bodies alone. I believe in the past people in the Christian church have also disrespected women by telling them they are meant solely to be homemakers and childbearers, and to let their husband be the only decision maker. What does this say about a woman's character, spirit, intelligence, or dreams? They are not as important as her ability to make, birth, and raise children, or her ability to maintain a house. This is a terrible travesty. While children are a profound gift, I do not exist to bear children. I exist to be the creature God created me to be, glorifying to him. I am not downgrading motherhood. I believe motherhood is wondrous and powerful. That's right--powerful. Women have power too. After all, a man cannot bear a child and honestly, probably wouldn't want to if he had the choice. It angers me that the world, and often the church too, calls women weak, soft, or delicate, yet we are able to go through labor and bring a living human being into the world. I just believe the church has so greatly over-emphasized the role of childbearing, homemaking, and submission that many women shy away from Christianity, or at least the church, because they are terrified of seeing their dreams and personal interests die and fear being exploited. This is a shame. What if the church, instead, helped women realize their dreams, their potential and spiritual being created to serve God and lovingly change the world, whether this be at home or abroad? I know that my fiance was getting frustrated with me for a while, because I would never help him make decisions. I thought that it wasn't my "Biblical" place or something. Turns out, he gave me a guy's opinion--he believes my opinion in matters is crucial. He wants to include me in the decision-making process, not exclude, not domintate. This surprised me. Now I joyfully have discovered that maybe the secret to submission, womanhood, and roles in marriage is as simple as this: mutual, humble servanthood in Christ Jesus. I believe a husband and wife are meant to be a team. A husband may be a leader/initiator, I agree, but this is for the sake, and with the support of, his wife, not in exclusion of her. This does not mean the wife cannot make any decisions on her own. It does not mean her opinion has less weight. If my future husband asks me to help him make a decision, or asks me to make the decision myself, as his supporter I will do that. Likewise, I would strive to include him in any decisions he would make. Male "leadership" is something that has been sadly distorted. It has been presented as domination/exclusive rights to decisions/exclusive authority/superior physical ability/superior intelligence, etc. I beleive that as God created humankind both male and female, women, too, are endowed with just as capable intellect, spirit, and body. Men and women ought to cooperate, mutually serve and respect one another. It grieves me that now the tides have turned upon men--that they are now the ones portrayed by society as less intelligent, less capable, the object of jokes and oppression. This, to me, is a wordly method of women exacting vengeance for centuries of female subjugation. This is not right, nor is is Christ-like. We ought to be lifting up our brothers, encouraging them, supporting them, respecting them, if we can ever hope for them to do the same for us. In the end, I do not think it is demeaning for a women to submit any more than it should be demeaning for a man to submit. If anyone wants, I have Biblical support for this, coming from close study of the original Hebrew. I have a question for this site: if women must show their husbands respect in public, is it ok/more tollerable for a husband to disrespect his wife, even in public? I have heard and read so much talk of wives needing to respect their husbands, and I believe this is true–especially in a North American culture which terribly disrespects men and lays them under the feet of women. But is the opposite right either? Culture also disrespects women by making them sexual objects, prized for their bodies alone. I believe in the past people in the Christian church have also disrespected women by telling them they are meant solely to be homemakers and childbearers, and to let their husband be the only decision maker. What does this say about a woman’s character, spirit, intelligence, or dreams? They are not as important as her ability to make, birth, and raise children, or her ability to maintain a house. This is a terrible travesty. While children are a profound gift, I do not exist to bear children. I exist to be the creature God created me to be, glorifying to him.

I am not downgrading motherhood. I believe motherhood is wondrous and powerful. That’s right–powerful. Women have power too. After all, a man cannot bear a child and honestly, probably wouldn’t want to if he had the choice. It angers me that the world, and often the church too, calls women weak, soft, or delicate, yet we are able to go through labor and bring a living human being into the world.
I just believe the church has so greatly over-emphasized the role of childbearing, homemaking, and submission that many women shy away from Christianity, or at least the church, because they are terrified of seeing their dreams and personal interests die and fear being exploited. This is a shame. What if the church, instead, helped women realize their dreams, their potential and spiritual being created to serve God and lovingly change the world, whether this be at home or abroad?

I know that my fiance was getting frustrated with me for a while, because I would never help him make decisions. I thought that it wasn’t my “Biblical” place or something. Turns out, he gave me a guy’s opinion–he believes my opinion in matters is crucial. He wants to include me in the decision-making process, not exclude, not domintate. This surprised me. Now I joyfully have discovered that maybe the secret to submission, womanhood, and roles in marriage is as simple as this: mutual, humble servanthood in Christ Jesus. I believe a husband and wife are meant to be a team. A husband may be a leader/initiator, I agree, but this is for the sake, and with the support of, his wife, not in exclusion of her. This does not mean the wife cannot make any decisions on her own. It does not mean her opinion has less weight. If my future husband asks me to help him make a decision, or asks me to make the decision myself, as his supporter I will do that. Likewise, I would strive to include him in any decisions he would make.

Male “leadership” is something that has been sadly distorted. It has been presented as domination/exclusive rights to decisions/exclusive authority/superior physical ability/superior intelligence, etc. I beleive that as God created humankind both male and female, women, too, are endowed with just as capable intellect, spirit, and body. Men and women ought to cooperate, mutually serve and respect one another.

It grieves me that now the tides have turned upon men–that they are now the ones portrayed by society as less intelligent, less capable, the object of jokes and oppression. This, to me, is a wordly method of women exacting vengeance for centuries of female subjugation. This is not right, nor is is Christ-like. We ought to be lifting up our brothers, encouraging them, supporting them, respecting them, if we can ever hope for them to do the same for us.

In the end, I do not think it is demeaning for a women to submit any more than it should be demeaning for a man to submit. If anyone wants, I have Biblical support for this, coming from close study of the original Hebrew.

]]> By: Brittany http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621#comment-1128 Brittany Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:19:59 +0000 http://www.girlsgonewise.com/?p=621#comment-1128 "1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror." 1 Peter 3:1-6. The view you mentioned always makes me so angry! It's a view that is centered on self... each woman putting herself first. Selfishness is at the root of sin and pride, which pulls men and women away from the Lord. The above passage gives me so much hope! It's saying that women can witness to men without saying a word! Women who are NOT dominating or pushy are treasured far more by their husbands (I'm just pretty darn sure of this) than one who nags or demands constantly (see the Proverbs for many truths on quarrelsome or troublesome wives ;D). It's the idea that women are allowed to be girls and be beautiful and cherished and men can be boys who get to wield swords and protect what is precious for their entire lives instead of only in their childhoods! I myself cannot wait until I have the chance to be married and can obey the Lord by submitting to my husband. I will submit gladly and in defiance of anyone who says that it is demeaning to women to do so! “1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.”

1 Peter 3:1-6.

The view you mentioned always makes me so angry! It’s a view that is centered on self… each woman putting herself first. Selfishness is at the root of sin and pride, which pulls men and women away from the Lord.

The above passage gives me so much hope! It’s saying that women can witness to men without saying a word! Women who are NOT dominating or pushy are treasured far more by their husbands (I’m just pretty darn sure of this) than one who nags or demands constantly (see the Proverbs for many truths on quarrelsome or troublesome wives ;D). It’s the idea that women are allowed to be girls and be beautiful and cherished and men can be boys who get to wield swords and protect what is precious for their entire lives instead of only in their childhoods!

I myself cannot wait until I have the chance to be married and can obey the Lord by submitting to my husband. I will submit gladly and in defiance of anyone who says that it is demeaning to women to do so!

]]> By: Estrella http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621#comment-1110 Estrella Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:54:31 +0000 http://www.girlsgonewise.com/?p=621#comment-1110 I am a married woman and new mother, in my twenties. I grew up in a world where women were sexually independent, financially independent, bowing to no one, and listening to the lie that womanhood is all about feeding all my fleshly desires. Believing that lie has brough much pain to me. It's a lie that confuses women about our roles and contributions to society, making things like childbearing and being a helper to our husbands seem like demeaning and shamefull acts, relating these deeds to slavery. I know little about the feminist movement, I only know that it has contributed to the society that I was raised in. I can say this, though: there once was a time when sleeping around with tons of different guys was seen as shameful, but is now seen as liberating. There was also a time when women and men were seen as a team, complimenting eachother; a husband providing financially for his beloved wife, and a wife meeting his physical needs of being hungry after working all day, and so on and so forth. It seems now that staying home and cooking meals for your husband and children is seen as pointless, demeaning work, contributing nothing to society. I find that to be a big fat lie. Wives and mothers are raising up little minds, little souls, future leaders, future law makers, ect... I submit to my husband because the Bible tells me to do so. If this offends people, it's because they are not aware that the Bible also tells husbands and wives to submit to eachother. So there it is. By submitting to my husband, I'm trusting God, and being obediant, and God always blesses obediance, but it's not in His nature to bless disobedience. God's way for women is so freeing. Women strive, fight and labor to be seen as independent; promiscuity, being vulgar, aggressive, cold hearted towards men, this only leads us further from the nurturer God intends us to be, and leads to deeper bondage. It's so freeing to not be held by those standards, to not have to live my life in the chains of feminist bondage. I am a woman, I dont need to go around roaring at people, because I have my purpose in Christ and am filled. I am a married woman and new mother, in my twenties. I grew up in a world where women were sexually independent, financially independent, bowing to no one, and listening to the lie that womanhood is all about feeding all my fleshly desires. Believing that lie has brough much pain to me. It’s a lie that confuses women about our roles and contributions to society, making things like childbearing and being a helper to our husbands seem like demeaning and shamefull acts, relating these deeds to slavery. I know little about the feminist movement, I only know that it has contributed to the society that I was raised in. I can say this, though: there once was a time when sleeping around with tons of different guys was seen as shameful, but is now seen as liberating. There was also a time when women and men were seen as a team, complimenting eachother; a husband providing financially for his beloved wife, and a wife meeting his physical needs of being hungry after working all day, and so on and so forth. It seems now that staying home and cooking meals for your husband and children is seen as pointless, demeaning work, contributing nothing to society. I find that to be a big fat lie. Wives and mothers are raising up little minds, little souls, future leaders, future law makers, ect…
I submit to my husband because the Bible tells me to do so. If this offends people, it’s because they are not aware that the Bible also tells husbands and wives to submit to eachother. So there it is. By submitting to my husband, I’m trusting God, and being obediant, and God always blesses obediance, but it’s not in His nature to bless disobedience. God’s way for women is so freeing. Women strive, fight and labor to be seen as independent; promiscuity, being vulgar, aggressive, cold hearted towards men, this only leads us further from the nurturer God intends us to be, and leads to deeper bondage. It’s so freeing to not be held by those standards, to not have to live my life in the chains of feminist bondage. I am a woman, I dont need to go around roaring at people, because I have my purpose in Christ and am filled.

]]> By: Paige http://www.girlsgonewise.com/archives/621#comment-1007 Paige Fri, 15 May 2009 04:22:33 +0000 http://www.girlsgonewise.com/?p=621#comment-1007 Submission does not mean that you become a doormat. It is supporting your husband. We are to submit to our husbands, and they are to submit to God. Our husbands are called to be servant-leaders. They are to love us as Christ loves the church (Eph 5:25); and to never treat us harshly (Col 3:19). I am not married (yet), but when I do marry I want to submit to my husband's leadership. Submission does not mean that you have to stay at home either. That depends on your relationship, and financial obligations. If we are able I hope to be a stay-at-home-mother. I was fortunate enough to have my mother at home and very involved in my life while growing up, and hope to have the same involvement in my future child's life. Thankfully the pastors at my church have talked about this frequently, and while some women shut off when they say the "S-word", many feel the same as I do. God bless! Submission does not mean that you become a doormat. It is supporting your husband. We are to submit to our husbands, and they are to submit to God. Our husbands are called to be servant-leaders. They are to love us as Christ loves the church (Eph 5:25); and to never treat us harshly (Col 3:19). I am not married (yet), but when I do marry I want to submit to my husband’s leadership. Submission does not mean that you have to stay at home either. That depends on your relationship, and financial obligations. If we are able I hope to be a stay-at-home-mother. I was fortunate enough to have my mother at home and very involved in my life while growing up, and hope to have the same involvement in my future child’s life.
Thankfully the pastors at my church have talked about this frequently, and while some women shut off when they say the “S-word”, many feel the same as I do.
God bless!

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